The Playbook For The Modern Man

Personal Trainers Slam Netflix’s Vegan ‘Game Changers’ Documentary

Would Hollywood lie to you?

Documentaries are created to present facts and information. But often this is done with a specific goal in mind and refuting evidence may be ignored. The latest documentary to be accused of this is Game Changers.

Game Changers is a 2018 documentary produced by James Cameron, Jackie Chan and Arnold Schwarzenegger that documents UFC fighter James Wilks as he travels the world researching “the truth about meat, protein, and strength”. The documentary came out last year and has only recently gained attention – beyond its vegan fans – after being released on Netflix.

In the film it is argued that any sort of animal consumption – including meat, dairy and eggs – can not only hinder athletic performance but can cause artery problems and lead to an early death. So far so bleeding heart. The documentary, however, steers clear of the words vegan and vegetarian due to the stigma that surrounds them. Instead, it presents “facts” about a plant-based diet.

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The problem? Many professionals have taken issue with these so-called facts, arguing that only one side of the argument is presented using controversial sources and questionable studies.

One such critic is Max Lugavere – best-selling author of Genius Foods – who took to Instagram to share his opinions. Max said the film made sweeping claims and it clearly had an agenda.

 

View this post on Instagram

 

Did you hear? There’s a new documentary on Netflix making the rounds advocating an exclusively plant based diet for athletic performance and health, making sweeping negative claims about any and all meat consumption. Unfortunately, it’s a one-sided, agenda driven narrative of cherry picked science. That’s not to say that there aren’t some true things said in the documentary (that’s how a bait and switch maneuver works—offer some truth, and then lots of 💩) but I would not recommend it for anything other than entertainment, and even then I’d say look elsewhere. . Don’t get your science from documentaries, folks—movies are made to appeal to emotion, not provide a balanced scientific argument. 🤦‍♂️ . Love you guys! ❤️ Max • • • • • #plantbased #vegansofig #whatveganseat #veganfoodshare #veganfood #govegan #thegamechangers #hclf #veganism #veganfoodporn #vegetarian #bestofvegan #dairyfree #rawvegan #vegansofinstagram #wholefoods #veganlife #glutenfree #plantstrong #801010 #rawtill4 #organic #plantpower #gamechangers #plantpowered #veganlifestyle #cleaneating #rawfood #plantbaseddiet #highcarb

A post shared by Max Lugavere (@maxlugavere) on

Max doesn’t think there is anything wrong with a plant-based diet. He does, however, take issue with how Game Changers presents the facts – as does US personal trainer and author James Smith, who goes into an even more detailed critique of the film on Instagram.

In a recent post, James says that many of the ideas presented in the documentary are untrue. He calls out a few specific facts presented including claims that drinking beetroot juice could increase someone’s bench press by 19%. James also took issue with the documentary’s claim that peanut butter was a superior source of protein to eggs.


It’s not just social media that has found a flaw in Game Changers. Founder and CEO of Perfect Keto Dr. Anthony Gustin broke down nine facts presented in the film. Anthony found the film would present elements of the truth but not the full story. For instance, when it comes to protein, Anthony said that animal protein sources naturally contained all the relevant amino acids (something that plant proteins did not).

Anthony also specifically called out the peanut butter claim, like James, because of how ridiculous it was.

“The filmmakers state that a peanut butter sandwich has as much protein as 3oz beef or three large eggs. That’s about five tablespoons of peanut butter, coming in at 500 calories (not including the bread). But calories aside, who uses five tablespoons of peanut butter to make a peanut butter sandwich?”

Like James and Max, Anthony calls on people to do their own research and evaluate whether a strict plant-based diet is right for them. Anthony reminds his readers that not everyone is an elite athlete – like those that Game Changers follow – and as such may have different needs in their diet.

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The science in the film does have defenders (beyond regular vegans) including Dr. Josh Cullimore, an author with Plant Based News. Josh praises the film for busting the soy-myth – that soy reduces testosterone – and for exploring the link between masculinity and meat. By showing UFC fighters and elite athletes the film proves that a plant-based diet does not (necessarily) hold people back when it comes to sporting success.

The film will no doubt continue to create controversy. The never-ending war between carnivores and vegans is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon and a film like Game Changers more than likely won’t end it. Ultimately: if you do what is right for you (and your body); you can’t go wrong.

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  • Spencer Hudson

    No doubt the documentary is skewed as nearly every documentary every made has, but refuting with facts like plants don’t have the relevant amino acids makes this article as untrustworthy as the film supposedly is. There are thousands upon thousands of different plants. There are some that have all 9 amino acids. And who eats one kind of plant for any meal? Have two different plant-based protein sources? Boom, you’ve got all 9 amino acids. I agree, presenting both protein sources as equal is deceptive. You certainly have to eat more plant-based sources to get the same amount of prote
    in, but let’s be clear, generally more doesn’t exactly make it equal as you’re going to get more fiber in that diet as well. So all this to say it’s a complex subject. Doing this sort of black and white analysis really just makes this agenda driven on both sides– which in and of itself is a concept that only appears in the media. There are no sides, just eat a balanced diet. I mean shit, if we’re going to be real, eat less meat because it’s carbon intensive and factory farming is horrific, though necessary to feed 7 billion plus people eating as much meat as the average affluent nation.

  • Poul Winther Knudsen

    Which two plants give you the same amino balance as animal based protein please? You make it sound like eating any two plants will make them cover for the deficiencies of each other and as such make your comment one heck of a lot less trustworthy than the article. You’re also completely neglecting the difficulty in human digestion with extracting the plant based protein. A big problem with a simple workaround; namely adding animal protein to trigger the digestion. A “balanced diet” is not the same to everyone. Personally I lose mass at a sickening rate without animal protein and it’s a truely dangerous proposition not to even mention the vast amount of vegans dropping with reports of massive hairloss and many other symptoms of obvious malnutrition.

  • Brett Anderson

    For someone who claims not to be a vegan ‘yet’ you sure sound like one, the denial and unwavering bias is strong in you, you’ll make a great one….oh and I used to be vegan a long time ago, been there done that, I’ll let you make your own mistakes.

  • Joseph Elliott Jr.

    I can’t take this article serious since even you have false facts in this article. The movie did not come out in 2018 it literally just came out about a month ago and just got to Netflix like 2 weeks ago.

  • Joseph Elliott Jr.

    If you cared enough to know which plant based proteins combined equals a complete protein profile you would have googled it and easily came up with the answer. Also I am a powerlifter and have been vegan since June haven’t lost any mass and haven’t lost any strength. In fact I have the most energy that I have ever had in my life and my endurance is through the roof. Nice try tho. Different strokes for different folks. Everyone’s body reacts differently to everything.

  • Robert

    I like how some have pointed out that the athletes in the film have pretty much ended their career by going vegan.

  • JJG

    Watch “The Game Changers”, do your own research into nutrition/health and be aware of the health, environmental and ethical implications of what you put into your body. Nutrition is one of the most complex issues out there but there is a general consensus that our top killers (cardio-vascular disease, stroke, cancer) are strongly related to our (bad) nutritional habits.

  • r0garc

    Dr Anthony Gustin: “But calories aside, who uses five tablespoons of peanut butter to make a peanut butter sandwich?”

  • Matt

    It must have been the hardest week of your life.

  • AlphaStrike

    At this point who cares. Our world is burning, fact. One fifth of meat eaters in the US are responsible for HALF the country’s food based emissions, fact. Anything that gets people to reduce or stop is good in my book.

  • AlphaStrike

    What the f*ck are you talking about? What does anonymity have to do with anything being discussed here? Facts are posted, listen or don’t.

  • Clark Massey

    Something tells me that you care about two of those “implications” a lot more than the other.

  • Clark Massey

    Consumption is a choice. Every resource you have consumed, has contributed to killing of the planet and you have consumed it by choice. Make a better choice.

  • AlphaStrike

    Did you read what you were replying to? Or are you just agreeing in an odd way?

  • Alan Hamilton

    Saw it at Sundance in Jan. 2018

  • YOU KNOW ME

    NO documentary or even a GOD can make folks stop using their belly as a tomb for dead animals. Typical human logic is KILL IT,EAT IT,WEAR IT, or put a probe up its butt! The addiction will not let them deal with these problems, they are too far gone to realize that their soul is not exempt from the sins of the slaughterhouse. How much does a cow have to look like a dog to get the same respect? A collar on its neck, a few trips to the vet and be labeled as a PET???

  • ubergeek3000

    Something tells me… “Who cares?”

  • Matt

    “every single plant contains all of the essential amino acids, in varying proportions”

  • Matt

    every single plant contains all of the essential amino acids, in varying proportions

  • Matt

    -every single plant contains all of the essential amino acids, in varying proportions-

  • ubergeek3000

    Great documentary. Terrible article spewing big animal agriculture false propaganda.

  • ubergeek3000

    Arnold Schwarzenegger?

  • ARusso

    I just do not even know where to begin boot I will start by saying that the author, and presumably the editors are really lousy journalists. There is no “Netflix’s Game Changers”. Better check your facts for accuracy. This is a minor error but usually minor errors correlate with larger ones.

    Also, the facts presented in this film are spot on and backed up by decades of high quality, peer reviewed publications. I have a PhD in the biological sciences so I have the credentials to state this with some authority. Does the author of this piece, or anyone they quote have a similar background?

    The whole tone of this article is offensive and shows ignorance of the topic, not knowledge.

  • paul rose

    Veganism is different to a plant based diet. Although they both eat exactly the same veganism differs because they avoid all animal products such as clothing and Products that use animals in their products or experiment using animals such as make up cleaning materials etc, that’s why they did not use the term vegan.

  • Matt

    Men grow breast from consuming estrogens (from meat and especially dairy) phytoestrogens from soy actually displace estrogen and would reduce the chance of growing breasts.

  • paul rose

    Why were you a vegan and why did you stop you did not explain and was it for health or morality and how long

  • Matt

    He had a salad sandwich for lunch once.

  • GC

    Not sure why, I would say that as an ex personal trainer, I have found a.lot.of what it says to be correct.

    The stereotype in society for vegans is usually some emaciated (slight over the top, I know) person but I have found quite the opposite. More often than not, the recovery time on vegan athletes, is less, meaning more training time. This isn’t just what the program says and what I have found, but this has actually been proven.

    I am not a vegan but I do think the stereotype message about them is changing, and from my own experience, I can say that from what I watched, I can only agree.

  • GC

    As an ex PT and also someone that used to teach students to become PT’s, I couldn’t see anything wrong with the documentary.

    I am not a vegan but when someone claims this diet to be nonsense, I always suggest to try it for a few weeks, and do you what! Not a single trainer has come back and said “I actually feel sluggish and worse”. Ok, some have said that they struggled with not eating meat but that’s a different matter.

  • Camille Delisle-Carrigan

    So gee, no conflict of interest in THESE opinions! How about talking to people who don’t have a monetary interest in having people continue to consume meat and dairy!? These kinds of BS responses are to be expected. The meat and dairy industries have been pulling out all the stops of late in an attempt to prop up their DYING industries. They’ve been putting out news stories and touting studies done by and funded by those industries. Most of us are no longer buying their LIES

  • Matt

    Wow. Blood type diet eh? Sounds like some real science-based advice. Ask yourself this: How much saturated fat and estrogen did you consumed while being vegetarian? You know they milk cows while pregnant right? Then you get a major spike in estrogen in those particular dairy products.

    Carbohydrates are not natural in nature? No? Then why does cellular respiration run on glucose?

    So much nonsense in there I can’t address it all.

  • Iliya Dzhugalov

    Yes, eat meat and animal products, smoke, drink alcohol and buy plastic bottles of water, get a car, get sick and go to the doctor’s and they will send you in the farmacy to buy some oils for the end of your days. All of this support only the capitalism and of course destroying the planet.

  • Bradley Earnshaw Shefmire

    The evidence is becoming more and more over-whelming – Meat & dairy is bad for your health. If you’re old enough, You’ll remember another deep-pocketed industry that got away with the same crimes using this same process – Big Tobacco.
    Early 1900’s (when hardly anyone smoked cigarettes) – Lung cancer was almost non-existent, however by mid Century the evidence was over-whelming. Lung cancer had risen 50 fold- Says who? Says the tobacco industry’s own research scientists. Internal memo’s found during whistle-blower investigations. We now know that senior scientists and executives within the cigarette industry knew about the cancer risks of smoking at least as early as the 1940s. Yet the Gov’t, (FDA) and other paid-off backers stood behind the charade keeping the money flowing – until the bubble burst in the 1980’s.
    Today we have – Heart disease, Diabetes, cancer, Alzheimers, Autism and several other ailments that seems to magically appear in tandem where-ever the standard American Diet shows up.
    The other big clue is the pharmaceutical corporations of the world are slowly taking over the worlds food supplies from meat/dairy to farming.
    Like what you’re getting, keep doing what you’re doing. Time to Wake up

  • https://www.facebook.com/app_scoped_user_id/100000293194600/ John W. Thomas

    The push-back to the idea a plant based diet and lifestyle is superior to the carnivore diet will undoubtedly occur in the meatia that supports the holocaust of the tax subsided factory farm slaughter house kill centers.
    Let your conscience be you guide.

  • FrankR

    You crack me up. “Personal Trainers” are 98% people who didn’t make it past 11th grade, never read a scientific study, and flail to gain attention. Once again, your “experts” didn’t point to a single FACT about the dangers of animal products, or site the body of evidence that makes up nutrition science. Well played sir!

  • Allen McGonagill

    So they are all biased, but you go to the CEO of Perfect Keto for the truth???

  • michaelsanchez

    Suicide?

  • michaelsanchez

    So you’re like every other crossfitter and Mormon

  • rune husa

    Wtf did you eat? 🙂 Oreos?
    I went vegan 18 months ago and at that time I was 122kg and steadily gaining weight due to inactivity due to a back injury. I used to lift weights a lot. Since then I dropped to 97 kg over 4-5 months, but then went back up to 102 kg and flattened out there. I do eat a fair bit of nuts though. I also got much better skin but most importantly, my acid reflex stomach issue that had really been a pain in the ass for almost 20 years went away as well.
    Feeling much better overall.

  • Shane Christopher

    So much nonsesne you had to mark my comment as spam??….classic insane leftist nutbag behavior. Meanwhile like all leftist religionists loons, you ignore my post while putting lies out and words in my mouth. Nobody said carbs dont exists in nature except YOU. I referred to too many carbs and too much sugar in our modern processed diets. But you knew that….youre just disingenuous extremists propagandist. Thats why you and tour feiends hide and remove my comments. Do t wanna be exposed….just wanna control the narrative

  • 00048560

    I highly, highly doubt that. And to be honest, if you were vegetarian and vegan for a combined 13ish years and got that sick, odds are that you didn’t eat enough.

    I see this crap all the time. People either a) never actually ate this way and are spreading lies because they are sensitive about their identity of being some paleo keto hack, or b) ate extremely foolishly and made themselves sick having oats for breakfast, raw salad for lunch, and a serving of pasta with veggies for dinner.

    You can starve yourself on a vegan diet, I know. But that is a choice of the highest level of self-righteous stupidity. Eat beans, lentils, peas, seitan and soy. Sprinkle with healthy amounts of fat, carbs and fruits/vegetables and you will feel healthy as ever.

  • Shane Christopher

    Wrong….i ate all those things. Gained weight

  • Shane Christopher

    Before attacking meat eaters in general, you should consider the jewish people who have slaughterhouses all over the world. Everything is marked kosher and animals are subjected to having their throats slit as they bleed out in pain….. I would imagine thats the most grotesque form of butchery I know of but you’ll never hear of a vegan pusher address that. Gotta stay politically correct and all…. You know who was a vegan and also helped create the codex alimenterus? Hitler. Yep he wanted a vegan people whose food and water intake were in state control and limited or rationed.

  • bgrigor

    Why is this a “war?”

  • ARusso

    You are asking the wrong question. The ratio of nutritionally essential amino acids in your diet is not critical.

    And a “ba;anced diet” is also not a necessity. Diversity in the diet, is enjoyable but unnecessary as there are monodiets that essentially provide all of the macro and micronutrients that a human body needs.

    All commonly consumed whole plant foods provide all dietarally essential amino acids. And they provide them in nutritionally sufficient quantities when adequate calories are consumed. One would have to make an intentional effort to achieve an amino acid deficiency on a diet of unprocessed plant-based foods, assuming it is even possible.

    Check the work of Walter Kempner. He used a protein restricted diet of white rice, white sugar, and small amounts of fruit to treat patients with several chronic metabolic conditions. The reason that sugar was added was because white (processed rice) had too much protein for these patients to handle. The results of this diet were inproved kidney function, blood glucose control, blood pressure control, and loss of weight

    And no on suffered any protien or amino acid deficiencies. Of course this is an extreme intervention and not a recommended lifestyle but it illustrates a point.

    And there are also the studies on those who have consumed nothing but potatoes for extended periods of time. No only do these individuals not experience ill effect but markes of metabolic disease improve.

    So now do you know which vegetables have all of the necessary Amino acids?

  • ARusso

    I do not think that is true. Most of them has the best seasons of their careers shortly after changing diets. You should not cherrypick, and present information out of context. Clearly, not eating animal products ended the career of Nate Diaz.

  • arch0049

    Eat meat. Eat plants. The funny thing is it is commercial trainers who are debunking the movie. Not actual medical doctors, presidents and leaders of medical schools and universities, cardiologists or other MD/PHD’s in nutrition/exercise science/dietic studies. Its commercial trainers. People with 40 hour exercise science certificates or worse – online certification. Remember that.

  • Matt

    I didn’t mark it as spam.

  • Jaeth

    The documentary was informative in more ways than one. At the end of the day, watch the film, make your own decision based on the research and results and not personal preference, and you’ll be set. Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this article was sponsored/endorsed by the meat industry.

  • Gursheen Slawek

    The documentary us actually fairly accurate, and there are numerous studies to back up most of it’s claims. See the work of Dr Colin Campbell at Cornell university; work of Dr Caldwell Esselstyn at Cleveland Clinic, the China Study, etc etc

    What sort of journalism you are doing if you don’t research your claims and fact check. Are you getting paid by the powerful animal agriculture industry for writing it?

    It is your article that is full of misleading information!

  • Fishluss

    Where are the vegan powerlifters?

  • Fishluss

    99% of the issues around meat and dairy relate to food processing and commercial farming practices. Look at Icelandic men and their diets

  • Poul Winther Knudsen

    Impressive that you can dismiss all previous nutritional science based on a couple outrageous and even non-recommended “studies”.
    No, I never asked which plants “have” which amino acids, but I also didn’t expect any plant fanatics to read correctly, hence explaining the issue directly afterwards.
    “Not experiencing ill effects….” WOW, this is great science!

  • rodentx2

    I went vegetarian in 1975 approx. Vegan since 2001. My doctor isn’t worried about me. I’m 73 years old and active. As a human I may be an “omnivore,” but that means I can adapt to a plant-based diet, too. I do it out of respect for the animals–all 70 billion worldwide–who are force-bred, born and raised to die for human pleasure and profit. This is a moral issue–a life and death issue–and not a mere matter of personal preference.

    The anti-vegan/anti-animal backlash is in full swing due to mainstream acceptance of plant-based agriculture and diet, and the Big Ag and Big Pharma industries want to secure their market share and profits at all costs. So they get “independent” third-party experts to trash documentaries like “Cowspiracy,” “Forks Over Knives,” “Game Changers,” etc. There’s Rick Berman’s pro-industry front group Center for Consumer Freedom, which attacks animal, environmental, labor, etc–groups.

  • Poul Winther Knudsen

    What on earth do you mean; “nice try”? I asked OP how to slam together any two plants to provide a proper amino acid balance, I never asked how to google. I am also not asking for any biased simplistic answer like your’s, because the matter happens to be a lot more complex than that, and especially when you include the digestion.

  • Poul Winther Knudsen

    You seriously without flinching try to compare the part of the human diet that though a million years allowed us to develop the brain capacity which makes us human in the first place to tobacco?
    You blame every modern decease on meat while your population is bloated like hot air balloons on a diet of plants deep fried in hydrogenated corn oil washed down with gallons soft drinks and hardly any supermarket shelve contain anything without truck loads of added sugar?
    Yes, it’s time to wake up, and it’s time for me to give up.

  • Matt

    BTW, why are you politicizing this? There is no left or right here. Nutrition is a science and not concerned with politics.

  • Jeff Hagins

    Everyone needs to remember that the meat and dairy lobbies, together with the Federal government, have done an incredible job of promoting meat and dairy (Got Milk?) and making everyone believe that these things are good for you. Since most doctors haven’t even read the relevant research, I’m guessing the personal trainers haven’t either.

    FIND A SOURCE OF INFORMATION THAT YOU TRUST THAT ISNT BEING PAID TO PROMOTE SOMEONE ELSES AGENDA.

    The top doctors and medical researchers in EVERY field of medicine (cardiology, oncology, neurology, etc) ALL promote the SAME diet: a whole foods, plant-based diet.

  • Matt

    Yeah, a whole foods plant based diet.

  • Jhunt

    That has very little to do with being vegan and more to do with people just winging it. I went vegan over 6 years ago and had ridiculously dry skin and dull hair. It turned out that I was wasn’t eating enough fat and I was in a major calorie deficit even though I was eating as much as I had been as an omnivore. I recommend food tracking and even periodic blood tests the first few months and it all becomes intuitive afterwards.

  • Jhunt

    That exact issue is being discussed but you apparently can’t do a simple search before spouting off statements that can easily be proved false. I myself have spoken with other vegans (ethically_elizabeth has posted as well)on Instagram so move on to another topic.

  • Mitch Phillips

    The phrase ‘clutching at straws’ comes to mind as I read this article…

  • SuicideJutsu

    Agreed, that’s actually the reason I stopped eating meat to be honest because your everyday farmed meat is fulla bullshit, if I could hunt where I am, or be willing to pay for naturaly raised meat then I would consume meat no problem. This world thrives off survival of the fittest in every aspect of life, sad but reality.

  • Jeromie Hartsough

    If 5 tablespoons of peanut butter is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

  • https://www.facebook.com/app_scoped_user_id/100003119436069/ Kelly Nadeau

    Omg. The aminos discussion again?
    FACT: Plant products, such as soy beans and quinoa, are complete proteins, which means that they contain all nine essential amino acids that humans need.
    It’s not that hard.

  • Brett Anderson

    I’ve had about 20years experience being either vegetarian, vegan and raw vegan, I believed in all of it, the ethical, environmental and nutritional rhetoric, until I woke up and realised it was all bullshit like a new age cult, the other thing is that there are many fuckwits like Matt involved which is probably the worst part of all of it.

  • Santwana Tewary

    The Game Changers has shown the true face of today’s healthy humans.
    Meat and dairy is actually the reason why you have so many health issues.
    But still people want to argue and deny those points because hey! I can’t leave without bacon and cheese.

  • goodepic

    Take your carnist self delusion home and stop pretending it’s anything else

  • Frank Atkisson

    Gonna eat mah chicken, fish and beef. Gonna eat them crab legs too.

    Turns out, we all die in the end no matter what we ate before we shuffle off the mortal coil, and I, for one, am not going to spend my life freaking out over my food.

    I’ll eat what I eat and do what I do, and then, I’ll die.

    You will too.

  • SuicideJutsu

    loool you’re cracking me up, I thought i was safe on another site, you got me there as well. the comment was up for like 10 minutes before i deleted it.

  • godisafairytale

    Do you have evidence of vast amounts of vegans dropping with massive hair loss and malnutrition?

  • godisafairytale

    Spot on. These are all paid liars and trolls. Count on them accusing us of the same thing to shift the blame any minute now…

  • Matt

    Hurtful. Vegetarians are omnivores and usually eat pretty unhealthy diets. Raw veganism is unsustainable and runs contrary to a healthy eating pattern. Perhaps if you’d tried to stick to eating a whole foods plant based diet you would have seen better results?

  • Matt

    All plants have all the essential amino acids.

  • Rak

    About the PB sandwich, it’s 5g protein per bread. So, it’s 2*5 = 10g protein in bread + 7g protein in PB = 17g protein. The eggs I buy have 6g protein, so 3 eggs = 3*6=18g protein. It makes sense to me.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh I love the cherry picking by soy boys like you, you’ve conveniently ignored the vegan factor of my experience, don’t let facts get in the way of your food cult programming matty boy, you and your 5 minutes of experience will collapse into a heap soon enough, along with your snide little comments.

  • Matt

    You just proved to me that you were never vegan. You have a vested interest perhaps? Maybe you are sitting in a troll farm in St. Petersburg? Who knows. But you need to be a little more convincing with your concern trolling to actually fool anybody.

  • befororewisdom

    Before you take anyone’s opinion on nutrition seriously, find out if they have a relevant college degree and if they relevant professional research experience.

  • Robert

    I like how so many just make up statistics to support their agenda.

  • Robert

    Check out Dr Baker’s review of the film.

  • Khy Boogie

    Vegan is a cult, Carnivore is a cult, paleo is a cult. We are omnivores shaped by our ancestors agricultural practices, hence why some populations are lactose intolerant and some are not, indigenous populations have a low resistance to alcohol that did not exist in their societies etc. Not accountign for population mixing, migration and various mutations. Eat what you like, eat what is good, try to have a balanced diet, sustainable is possible, non factory farmed. I enjoy vegan treats but they are way too high in sugar, sometimes i will eat paelo back accident, sometimes intentionally vegetarian, i enjoy beef and turkey jerky, i like my dairy and chicken free range and organic, but not all vegetables need to be. fruit in general should not be over eaten and not out of season.

  • Khy Boogie

    do you even google bro?

  • ARusso

    You have a reading comprehension issue. Work on that and we can talk some more.

    And, those links are simply examples to support my statement. I did not feel it was my responsibility to supply you with a full annotated bibliography, or a complete review of the existing literature. The odds a vast literature to back up my assertions. Loom it up yourself.

  • Camille Delisle-Carrigan

    Dr Shawn Baker of “The Carnivore Diet”…are you serious?? Pretty much ALL he eats is meat AND he had to surrender his medical license because of his DANGEROUS diet! He’s a looney tune. Try again…

  • AlphaStrike

    None of what I said is made up. Try using google and you’ll find the research behind it.

  • Stephanie Leah Jaffa

    What is with the uproar about the peanut butter
    sandwich claim? Claim: One pb sandwich has as much protein as three eggs. Facts: 1 large egg = 6 g protein. 6 x 3 = 18. 1 serving PB = 2 tbsp, with 8 g protein. 1 slice Dave’s Killer Bread (popular whole-grain sandwich bread) = 5 g protein. So two slices of half-decent bread with one serving of pb, aka a pb sandwich (!) = 18 g protein. #math4meaties

    Honestly, I think this is illustrative of why a film like this is needed: People have such deeply ingrained (pun intended) ideas about where protein comes from that they lose the ability to read what they themselves have written. People accept that nuts are a protein source, but have decided that grains are not (which is weird because most [all?] grains have a higher percentage of calories from protein than nuts), to the point that apparently the only possible source of protein in a peanut butter SANDWICH is the filling.

  • Steve Garcia

    PB 7 grams per serving .. double check the label a serving is 2 tablespoons on most brands i believe..

    Not trying to argue i just think it should be stayed that modern mass production PB is crap. Often prone to harbor certain fungus , very problematic for digestive system..

    6 tablespoons = high calorie low bioavailability protein , and max 20 grams protein. Additionally, most are undisclosed blends labeled as “may contain other nuts”

    Did vegan, know many vegans (live in Cali) most switching to something less fanatical -fact based.
    I’d say keep an open mind. . .

    Oh, and theres a reason why we have beyond burgers, vegi-bacon and fried cauliflower hot wings..

    Meat be delish!

  • Steve Garcia

    Yepp check out ESV end stage veganism..

  • Hailey

    Listen to your body people, be aware of its needs. I personally do not eat animal products bc I simply do not crave it or have a desire to bite into animal flesh it creeps me out. I eat produce, I love it. Produce and legumes and nuts, so satisfying. My body, skin, hair, has never looked better, and I’m stronger than I have ever been. I’m 34 & I always had a hard time gaining weight all through my teens and early 20s & I Would try to eat steaks at least 5 days a week, I quit that. I’m now a perfect weight, I’m proud of how I look, more confidence than ever. Once diving into what I was eating and becoming more aware of what my body needed, I realized having dairy and meat kept me from eating less produce, also it was all processed foods. That there equals to not very much nutrients. I don’t count calories, I only eat for nutrients. You are what you eat, have you seen a cow or a pig in a slaughter house or even in a pasture? A chicken looks like hell, poor thing looks like it been beat to shit with almost no feathers on it and has half a beak. They all look malnourished, think about what they’re eating, I can take a good guess their diet is beyond processed to a point their bodies can’t even break it down. I honestly will not try to convince someone to eat the way I do, to each their own. I do however think it’s important for people that do want to live a healthy lifestyle is to evaluate the nutrients you’re putting in your body from the food you take in,not supplements.

  • Kevin Rheeder

    Having been on both sides and fallen back due to just being lazy etc…I can say with full honesty that these facts are indeed true. I was a 104kg 23% bodyfat person. Tried out a vegan lifestyle due to alot of cancer in our family.

    I immediately started losing weight, 1kg per week. Started jogging a bit and before I knew it i was running sub 5min/km. I tried it before but was always hurting etc. After going vegan, I could get up run 10km and not feel a thing. Even if I havent trained in a fee weeks.

    Recovery is amazing and really energy is something I havent felt in many years. I use to lift a lot of weights, have steak and normal protein supplements as this something that I read was how it should be.

    On the vegan diet i did not touch any supplements but had my blood and mineral etc levels checked. All way above average and above average muscle mass. By then I dropped to 88kg. This was after 12 weeks.

    So yes, being a big muscled gym freak and a vegan diet lean athlete I can say that Ive experienced both sides of the story. Everything told in the story is true as I experienced it myself.

    People can try and refute all they want. The only way to really know is to try it for yourself.

  • John Dick

    Doesn’t James Cameron own a facility for extraction of vegan protein from peas.?isnt that a vested interest? Just like meat and dairy?

  • Dredious

    You don’t need meat, Billy Simmonds – Prana On start there.

  • Shawn King

    Were you eating any processed foods? Were you eating anything that wasn’t all-natural? Lots of people call themselves vegetarian while eating a lot of bread and pasta and even cheese. I don’t doubt you ate all what is listed above. The question is, what ELSE did you eat? You literally cannot get enough calories to gain weight to unhealthy levels if you eat whole, unprocessed plants (fruit and vegetables) and get adequate amounts of healthy fat from olive and hemp oil, nuts, seeds, avocado, etc. All I can tell you is if what you claim is true, you did it wrong.

  • What’s your name?

    Meateaters sure are threatened by this documentary. I’ve never seen such a reaction to a movie that is meant to promote your health. Who knew that vegetables were controversial?

  • Jay-qwe-lin

    Soy boys! ERrrh-hmmm

  • What’s your name?

    All he did was ask a question. Veganism isn’t for you, so why so defensive?

  • Ahmet Gokcek

    I went Vegan 15 years ago after dealing with Chronic Fatigue for 3 years and I slowly got my energy back and was able to compete in 5k/10k/HM races. One of my doctors said that only 25% of people who deal with years of Chronic Fatigue ever gain their energy back and that I was fortunate.
    I read a lot of nooks like the China Study and watched lots of films and docs and going Vegan and staying on a whole foods diet was the best and it’s worked. I tried going Paleo while I had CFS and it didn’t work.
    Most people want to debunk the Vegan diet health claims because it’s hard to stick to and you have to give up foods that’s comforting and makes you feel good temporarily. If a study showed that eating donuts and bacon would increase lifespan and eliminate disease then nobody would argue because those foods taste good and give comfort.
    Giving up meat/eggs/dairy and also baked good and processed food wasn’t easy for me and I still yearn to eat bread but feeling good and being a productive person is more important.
    Also I’m 52 years old and I can run a 36/37 minute 10K and a 1:21 half marathon and these about the same times as I ran in my early 30s. From a selfish point I want my competitors to continue eating meat and junk so I can continue winning races!

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh yeah, because vegans are soooooo chill….LMAO!

  • Brett Anderson

    Of course he can make his passive aggressive snide little comments but when I reply in kind I must be “so defensive”, right…got it.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh so somehow I’m making parts of my life experience up simply because you say so? For what purpose exactly? Oh that’s right, anyone who leaves the vegan cult must be lying about being a vegan or the old chestnut, ‘you just didn’t do it right’, can’t have anyone destroying your manufactured delusions now can we. Congratulations on exhibiting all the classic traits of a vegan food cultist, you get an A for predictability ….run along now matty boy.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh so dietary animal products are a big conspiracy against veganism? Ok, tell me, can you name one vegan civilisation in human history? I wont be holding my breath waiting for an answer.

  • Matt

    No ex-vegan would use the term “soy boy” that’s an alt-right phrase used to belittle someone that they see as a threat to the status quo.

  • Matt

    Can you name a meat based civilization? The thing is all civilizations are essentially plant-based. Peasants and workers ate primarily or exclusively plants. Rice, wheet, chickpeas, corn, barley, potatoes. These staple foods are what fueled civilizations and empires. Do your homework.

  • Justin C.

    Inuit & Masai for starters. It’s not to say that meat-based means absolutely no plants. But even the true Mediterranean diet is chock full of animal products. Animal products are essential to complete health.

  • Justin C.

    The biggest problem with the SAD is the preponderance of GRAINS, especially refined carbohydrates.

  • JosephOlstad

    This article contains one of the most blatant straw man fallacies I’ve read in a long time…so comical. Notice the peanut butter sandwich critique. He says..who uses 5 tbl of PB to make a PB sandwich? Answer: only a guy dumb enough to make a sandwich without bread! The quote critiques the movie’s sandwich claim but then conveniently says “not including the bread.” I get it…breadless sandwiches!?! Of course he leaves out the bread. Each bread slice brings in 5 grams of protein which reduces the tbl of peanut butter requirement to 2.5 tbl in order to equal the 18 grams of protein from 3 eggs. So his point about needing 5 tbl of PB goes out the window…unless you make a PB sandwich and accidentally forget bread…smearing PB all over your hands. I guess it could happen.

  • Brett Anderson

    Lol, oh that’s hilarious, so you’re an expert on the psyche of ex-vegans now too? haha, and for the record soyboy has nothing to do with the “alt-right”, its a term describing pathetic little snowflake males who hide behind their keyboards and make snide little remarks that they wouldn’t have the guts to make in person, isn’t that right matty boy.

  • paul rose

    Your the one making the nasty and snide remarks. Laughing at your own comments tells us one thing, your a poor, lonely old fart.

  • Matt

    Like a pathetic snowflake not even hardcore enough to maintain their veganism? Like that kind of snowflake?

  • Matt

    Fist the Inuit and Masi are not civilizations. Secondly both groups ate plants. The Inuit were not healthy, they were survivors whom unfortunately had wide-spread chronic disease issues.

  • Matt

    Is he promoting it and investing in it because he’s trying to make a buck? Or does he believe in it because he is smart and informed?

    I’m pretty sure Cameron doesn’t need the money.

  • Matt

    Obviously when they calculated 5 tablespoons of penut butter they forgot that bread contains protein. Or more likely didn’t even realize bread contains protein in the first place.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh “snowflake” ,that is an alt right phrase used to belittle someone that they see as a threat to the status quo.
    And seriously, wow, do I sound like someone who wants to maintain veganism?!!! LMAO!

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh I love the projecting and hypocrisy, you making snide remarks first and YOU laughing at YOUR OWN comments, I wouldn’t expect anything less from you soyboy nutjobs.

  • Brett Anderson

    ALL human civilisations have used animal products, ALL OF THEM! But of course you being a deceitful liar won’t accept facts and try a twist the subject, facts that show us that NO HUMAN CIVILISATION IN HISTORY HAS EVER BEEN VEGAN, none, zero, zip. Here’s a tip matty boy, take yourself out into nature away from from cafe late soy boy beverages and see how long your veganism lasts, you’ll be a crying heap in days… as well as animals for food, do you think people made shoes and clothes out of banana leaves? Ahhh vegans, so delusional.

  • Matt

    No, because you lack the intellect and self discipline. And have a need to suck on a cow’s teat like it was your mother.

  • Matt

    Only the kings and queens and gentry were rich enough to eat animal products on a regular basis, if we are talking about civilizations (and they have the signs of chronic disease as a result). The vast majority of people ate plant staple foods for the vast majority of the time. Empires were built on rice, not pork.

    Past civilizations were not vegan but future ones will be.

  • Matt

    You never were vegan, with your made up name and fake pic. Probably a beef farmer concern trolling. Very unconvincing.

  • shino88

    Funny how no one brings to attention the fact that babies/children are recommended to be fed a balanced diet of milk, fish, meats and plant based food to provide all the nutrition needed to develop a healthy adolescent. Regardless if the mother is completely vegan, the milk is still being produced by an animal as a by product, just like grass eating cows.
    What is good for the goose is good for the gander, a balanced diet is in my opinion the most optimal nutrition based diet.

  • Justin C.

    You’re splitting hairs here Matt. Civilization or not, they are an insular group of people with their own way of living. And nobody is saying they didn’t eat plants, every civilization has eaten SOME plants, but these ate diets RICH animal foods – just like the Okinawans, Greeks, and Aboriginals truly eat. And the Inuit did not have widespread chronic disease issues until they were introduced to grains and other foods brought by Europeans. And the main reason they are experiencing all these health problems today is because the common Canadian diet is so much different than their native diet.

  • Matt

    Grains are the cornerstone of civilization. Wheat, barley, and rice. Do you have any idea how important these grains were for human civilization?

    Okinawans were 95% plant based.

    The point about civilizations is this: For large scale populations it’s impractical for the bulk of people to get their calories from animals. Only industrial agriculture can manage that. That is a post WW2 reality. It never worked in antiquity.

    Don’t assume the inuit of old enjoyed resplendent health.

  • godisafairytale

    And here they are. Did I call it or what?

  • EFNAZ01

    I am a woman who has been vegan for well over a decade. I’ve read all your comments and agree that you were never a vegan–your comments betray you.

  • Brett Anderson

    Mmmmmmmm….I love sucking on a cows teat, I love bacon and eggs, and I love a big juicy STEAK! It’s why you soyboys are so angry, secretly you miss real food too but you need to be a slave to your food cult and corrupted ideology, you’re a fake Matt, you’re a miserable fake.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh kings and queens eh? Where are the kings and queens in aboriginal culture? For 60000 years they ate only plants did they? Funny, even the ones still living off the land barely eat plants. What about Africa, was it all about plants and kings and queens there too? Hmmm, Asia? That magnificent seafood and pork dishes, just a figment of us meat eaters imagination hey Matt?…I could go on and on but I really don’t have time for imbeciles and their delusions.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh my god seriously, I couldn’t care less about what you believe.

  • Matt

    In Africa they consume a lot of millet and yams. In Asia they eat rice. How ignorant are you? Increasing animal consumption is a relatively recent phenomena. Do yourself a favor, read a book.

  • Matt

    You know between our hunter/gatherer past and today there was at least 10000 years of agriculture? During this period civilizations rose around the world fueled by plant staple foods. Yes the affluent regularly ate meat, but the pesentry did not. The people that actually did the work and built the infrastructure ate plant staple foods. Grains and legumes. Starches, not suprising when you understand that humans are particularly adapted to eat starches. We have multiple copies of the amylase gene.

  • Matt

    A fake? Projecting mutch?

    Most mammals when they finish weaning stop drinking milk and move on to food. Those man-boobs that you probably have are from the estrogen you get from milk and animal flesh. Half of the time cows are milked while actually pregnant and the estrogen levels skyrocket. All those growth hormones. And people wonder why cancer is so common.

  • Matt

    Drinking from an animal’s teat. Slathering your lips with the flesh of other beings while destroying your own health. Blissfully unaware of your encroaching heart disease.

    You are the one in the cult. You are just in so deep you don’t even realize it.

  • Matt

    You are probably the author trying to drive traffic to this site.

  • paul rose

    Soyboy jeez you’ve hurt my feelings with that original comment… What’s that lump on your forehead, oh ya dick head

  • Wounded Sparrows

    There’s no such thing as a human “carnivore” – we’re omnivores… so the debate is between those who recommend eating 97% plant-based with 3% or less of diet being animal products (i.e. a plant-based diet) and people who insist that eating meat with 3 meals a day is a “healthy” way to eat.

  • Brett Anderson

    Holy shit, guess what genius…ITS NOT VEGAN! Does that sink into your EFA deprived brain? Seriously, get some grass fed meat into you champ, you really are suffering mentally.

  • Matt

    The point is most of their calories come from plants. It’s not some cave-man reality you seem to have in mind.

  • Matt

    If you take a look at the traditional Kenyan diet you see a very good eating pattern. It is not vegan, but very healthy nevertheless. And obviously it is good for their athletic performance if you know anything about long distance running.

    “On The Road To Olympic Gold, Kenyan Marathoners Fuel Up On Carbs : The Salt Kenya’s winning marathoners mainly fill up on high-carb vegetarian dishes like ugali, a cornmeal mush, and githeri, boiled corn and kidney beans.”

  • Matt

    It sounds like your cortisol levels are a little high. Maybe eat some carbohydrates every once-in-a-while.

  • Brett Anderson

    It’s not about dietary macros or calories, it’s the fact that no civilisation in history was vegan, the natural world is not vegan, our natural diet was never vegan, all of recent and current civilisations are not naturally vegan (good try with the “caveman” straw man argument) and no one would survive a day as a vegan out in nature away from modern conveniences and processed foods. Veganism is a new age cult pushed by the UN, destroying health through its high grain, nutrient and EFA deficient, calorie obsessed, processed sugary carbs which are the real cause of heart disease along with mental illness (look in the mirror).

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh jeez, you got me there with oh so original “dickhead” comment, you really showed me good! Lol

  • Matt

    Humans have (and do) survive on 100% plant based diets. With the exception of beta carotene a person can live exclusively on rice. If you pair rice with vegetables a person can live on that. And many in extream poverty do.

    You think veganism is a cult but we both know the truth. Veganism is the future and that’s exactly what you are afraid of.

  • paul rose

    O sorry did not know you was called a dick head a lot. Will think of something more original that you’ve not been called before, but that will be hard.

  • Matt

    Vegans have higher levels of EFAs than omnivores. You probably didn’t know that.

    If you believe that processed carbohydrates are the primary cause of CVD you have been sold a bill of goods.

    The primary cause is oxidised cholesterol. Caused primarily by the consumption of animal derived foods.

  • paul rose

    Brett I asked you a question, you replied, thank you but then you came back at a lot of people being very nasty to them. I asked why you was so angry and to chill out, and cracked a joke about meat. You then became rude to me. You did not have to be defensive in any manner I was just curious as to when and why you became vegan and why you went back to eating meat. You then proceeded to have a go at me so a bit of retaliation came back at you. If you can’t take criticism from others you should refrain from giving it. Enough said.

  • paul rose

    Agree wholeheartedly when I got prostate cancer one of the first things they asked me was my dairy intake and stop taking it. Unfortunately I became vegan to late. I was vegetarian and only went vegan a year before I found out I had it.

  • Brett Anderson

    Right, let’s look at what you just wrote, I replied to you and you were appreciative of that, great, but as others attacked me I responded in turn TO THEM but apparently that’s supposed to have something to do with you, and apparently I’m supposed to just cop it otherwise you’ll label and judge me for it? And no, I wasn’t rude to you, I merely responded to your smart ass jibe at me with one straight back at you.
    And which one is it exactly, did you ask a question or direct “criticism” at me? You contradicted yourself there, and none of it was “criticism” by the way, it was a bunch of snide comments. I would suggest you take a long hard look at yourself and your little friends there before pointing fingers.

  • Alex Desilets

    Going by that logic, the sum emissions of normal people on normal diets would account for 250% of food based emissions lol.

    How about this fact. Both the Inuit and the Maasai are nearly 100% carnivorous; the Maasai by choice the Inuit by necessity. Both groups have zero heart disease. Both groups have been extensively studied. Both populations have members who have moved into our societies and started eating like us. Those people have been studied. They all get sick like us when they eat like us.

    Do an ounce of research on prehistoric humans and evolution. They ate a lot of meat. In fact, we are so well adapted to eating meat that when farming shows up in the fossil record, life expectancy was nearly cut in half, people grew shorter, and they died toothless. Our, primarily carnivorous, ancestors lived into their 50s, 60s, and, sometimes, 70s and died with all their teeth.

  • paul rose

    You said you were once a vegan all I asked was how long you were vegan, why did you turn to veganism and why did you stop. How’s that criticising you. And if you can’t take a little joke about eating meat is making you wild god help you. I think you would argue if someone said white is white you would say it’s black. Anyway that’s enough from me. This is becoming senseless now. Nice talking to you mate anyway.

  • AlphaStrike

    Yea.. it’s not logic, it’s called scientific research. It doesn’t matter what our ancestors did, it matters what we do now to move forward, creating a world us and our children can actually live in.

  • Colin Butcher

    You look like you eat a lot of meat and your emotional response suggests the same. Get a grip dude your weird hormonal anger is just turning people off meat even more

  • Ezekiel Camacho

    Fortunately I’m trying to become a Gladiator so ill go ahead & stick to the science. Plant-Based Diet here I come!

  • Brett Anderson

    Lol, oh yeah, vegans are a bundle of joy aren’t they, are you one of those idiots who abuse people in restaurants and protest on farms…please teach me about your gentle and tolerant nature oh supreme one! Hahaha, fuck off snowflake.

  • Brett Anderson

    Oh and how does it feel to have the last name of ‘Butcher’? LMAO, that’s priceless!

  • Tristan Burton

    Yep, that’s the only way to cut through the bs. The wifey and I are going to do the vegzn challenge starting Jan 1st 2020….one whole year without meat. My wife has tried Burger King ‘s ‘impossible whopper’ and said it wasn’t as gross as she thought it would be, lol.

  • mike

    Vitamin B12 only naturally available from animal products but added to cereals ect. Dementia memory loss from low vitaimin B12

  • mrose

    Of course it is only available from animal products – because it is created by intestinal bacteria (Pseudomonas and Klebsiella). And, since animals have intestines, animals have B12. Eat a healthy vegetarian diet that promotes healthy intestinal flora and you will “create” all of the B12 you physiologically require. Eat a meat based diet and you consume the B12 stored in the tissues of the animal. So, no you don’t have to eat meat to get B12.

  • mrose

    Thank you!! Well said.

  • mike

    Certainly the evidence is not clear cut or simple

    Quote –
    Intestinal Bacteria as a Vitamin B12 Source 2
    Contents

    Summary
    Bacteria in the Large Intestine
    Bacteria in the Small Intestine
    Iranian Villagers
    Conclusion
    References

    Summary

    Given that many otherwise healthy vegans develop B12 deficiency when not supplementing their diets with B12, intestinal bacteria cannot be relied upon to prevent B12 deficiency in vegans.

    Are raw foodists or people who eat fermented foods exceptions? No. See the section B12 Status of Raw Foodist Vegans.
    Bacteria in the Large Intestine

    It has long been assumed that B12 is produced by bacteria in the large intestine (aka the colon), but since B12 is produced below the ileum (where B12 is absorbed), it is not available for absorption. This theory is reinforced by the fact that many species of totally or primarily vegetarian animals eat their feces. Eating feces allows them to obtain B12 on their diets of plant foods.

    The best evidence I have found for this theory is reported by Herbert (1). He reports a study in the 1950s in England where vegan volunteers with B12 deficiency (as shown by megaloblastic anemia) were fed B12 extractions made from their own stools and it cured their deficiency. He said it proves that the colon bacteria of vegans produce enough B12 to cure a deficiency, but that the B12 produced by the bacteria in the colon is excreted rather than absorbed. This appears to be convincing evidence.

    However, the study Herbert cites as the source, “Callender ST, Spray GH. Latent pernicious anemia. Br J Haematol. 1962;8:230-40,” does not mention this experiment.

    There is another study by Callender and Spray that sounds like it could be the one Herbert is describing, “Preparation of hematopoietically active extracts from faeces. Lancet 1951(June 30):1391-2.” This study was not performed on vegans, but rather on people with pernicious anemia who cannot properly absorb B12. The B12 was isolated from the stool samples and given to the subjects intravenously. Because these people were ingesting B12, the B12 in their stool could have been from the B12 they were eating.

    On the other hand, according to Lactobacillus lactis Dorner and Lactobacillus leichmannii assays, there were substantial amounts of B12 analogue found in the feces (e.g., 5 µg per 10 ml (2 teaspoons)). This seems like too much to have been provided by only the diet and enterohepatic circulation. Apparently, some of this B12 analogue was active, and there was enough to counteract any inactive B12 analogue in their stools. Thus, this study provides good evidence that there is active B12 produced by bacteria in the colon of at least some humans.

    A variable to consider is that there are over 400-500 species of bacteria in the average human’s colon and these bacteria have not all been delineated. It is plausible that some humans have B12-producing bacteria in significant amounts while other humans do not. Some bacteria in the digestive tract absorb B12 for their own use, further complicating this situation.

    Allen and Stabler found that more than 98% of B12 analogue in the human stool is inactive (2). This was in people who had a consistent intake of vitamin B12. They determined that 81% of nonabsorbed, ingested B12 was destroyed or degraded into inactive analogue. This may or may not be the case in people with much lower, or no, vitamin B12 intakes.
    Bacteria in the Small Intestine

    B12 deficiency has been found with relatively high frequency among vegetarian Indian immigrants in England, while at one time it was thought to be uncommon among native Indians with identical dietary patterns, possibly because healthy Indian subjects have a more extensive amount of bacteria in their small intestine than people in the West (3).

    Albert et al. (3) (1980) measured B12 production of bacteria in the small intestines of people in India using a Euglena gracilis Z assay. Results were confirmed by an Ochromonas malhamensis assay, which is thought to be specific for active B12. They determined that some active B12 was produced by members of the bacteria genera Klebsiella and Pseudomonas. Further confirmation using chromatography and bioautography showed a molecule with similar properties to cyanocobalamin. Albert et al. speculated that when Indians migrate to the West, their digestive tracts become like those characteristic of people in Western countries: with little or no bacteria in their upper small intestines. An article in Nutrition Reviews (5) (1980) suggested some alternative causes of Indian immigrants to Britain having more B12 deficiency than Indian natives:

    In India, water is contaminated with various bacteria, including those from human and animal feces.
    The practice of defecating in open fields and lack of proper sewage.
    The mode of toilet hygiene where water is used instead of toilet paper.

    It should also be noted that B12 deficiency is fairly common in India (see the table below), especially in lower income, lacto-ovo vegetarians (6).
    Table 1. B12 Status of a Set of Healthy Native Indians age 27–554
    Number average serum B12
    (pg/ml) serum B12 .26 µmol/l HCY > 15 µmol/l
    Non-VegA
    Lacto-OvoB 36
    27 216 46% 70% 81%C
    A–Tended to eat only small amounts of animal products • B–1 person was vegan • C–A low folate status could have contributed to the high HCY levels (7) • HCY—homocysteine • MMA–methyl malonic acid • The numbers in this table are only for the 63 healthy subjects in Refsum et al (4), taken from Table 1 in that paper
    Iranian Villagers

    Halstead et al. (8) reported that some Iranian villagers with very little animal product intake (dairy once a week, meat once a month) had normal B12 levels. None had megaloblastic anemia. Their average B12 level was 411 pg/ml which was quite high considering their diet. The authors speculated this could be because their diets, which were very low in protein, allowed for B12-producing bacteria to ascend into the ileum where the B12 could be absorbed. They also speculated that because they lived among their farm animals and their living areas were littered with feces, they picked up enough B12 through contamination.

    Halstead et al.’s 1960 report was in contrast to Wokes et al.’s 1955 report (9) in which numerous British vegans were found to have neurological symptoms of B12 deficiency.
    Conclusion

    It’s possible that some vegans can ward off overt vitamin B12 deficiency, and even mild B12 deficiency, through B12 production by bacteria in the small intestine. However, this is an unusual condition, especially in Western countries, and should not be relied upon, including by raw foodists.
    References

    1. Herbert V. Vitamin B-12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988;48:852-8.

    2. Allen RH, Stabler SP. Identification and quantitation of cobalamin and cobalamin analogues in human feces. Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 May;87(5):1324-35.

    3. Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Nature. 1980;283(Feb 21):781-2.

    4. Refsum H, Yajnik CS, Gadkari M, Schneede J, Vollset SE, Orning L, Guttormsen AB, Joglekar A, Sayyad MG, Ulvik A, Ueland PM. Hyperhomocysteinemia and elevated methylmalonic acid indicate a high prevalence of cobalamin deficiency in Asian Indians. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Aug;74(2):233-41.

    5. No author. Contribution of the microflora of the small intestine to the vitamin B12 nutriture of man. Nutrition Reviews. 1980 Aug;38(8):274-5.

    6. Sarode R, Garewal G, Marwaha N, Marwaha RK, Varma S, Ghosh K, Mohanty D, Das KC. Pancytopenia in nutritional megaloblastic anaemia. A study from north-west India. Trop Geogr Med. 1989 Oct;41(4):331-6.

    7. Antony AC. Prevalence of cobalamin (vitamin B-12) and folate deficiency in India–audi alteram partem. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Aug;74(2):157-9.

    8. Halsted JA, Carroll J, Dehghani A, Loghmani M, Prasad A. Serum vitamin B12 concentration in dietary deficiency. Am J Clin Nutr. 1960 May-Jun;8:374-6.

    9. Wokes F, Badenoch J, Sinclair HM. Human dietary deficiency of vitamin B12. Am J Clin Nutr. 1955 Sep-Oct;3(5):375-82.

  • mike

    It is possible mrose that you know a way around this problem so you can leave a comment on the vegan health.org site if you wish to as maybe there is something they have missed .

  • john

    For the most part all those degrees are not worth the paper their written on . Its because of the so called professionals that have been giving bad advice that we’re in this disease state. This Doc is another example of bad advice. There is no perfect diet for everyone. Some people do much better with a meat based diet others don’t. Do whatever works for you .

  • befororewisdom

    Repeat your comment back to yourself the next time you have a broken leg, need a plumber or if those researchers with the “degrees are not worth the paper their they are written on” comes up with a COVID-19 cure. You are refusing to believe what you don’t want to hear from people who know more than you.

  • john

    I won’t have to . If I break my leg I know the doctor is the best person to help me. The past results have proven that. its all about results not fancy degrees. When it comes to nutrition most have gotten no results by listening to the experts and many have gotten results by doing differently. If science is your religion remember that Nutrition is not even close to being a science ( Evidenced based science that is.)

  • Trevor William Howlett

    Is nutrition complicated or do we just make it so with our different cultures? I’m thinking quality of life and lifespan are the two most relevant measures of nutritional success, and the + and – on those stats adjusted for maybe very bad to very good diets (w good, bad, and average measures) is kind negligible…? I cannot imagine, though could very well be wrong, that you gain more than a few years on someone with an average diet if you have a very good one. People have lived on little more than a subsistence amount of rice for as long as many Westerners live on average diets, and I can’t shake that reality and what it implies about the “complexity” of nutrition.

  • Joel Anderson

    I think it’s actually a term used for feminine men, since soy lowers testosterone in men. It’s a nicer way to say you’re a sissy.

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